Matt. 24:29-31 – in the King James Version –
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
But, in Young’s Literal Translation it reads –
“29 `And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
31 and he shall send his messengers with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from the ends of the heavens unto the ends thereof.”
Some people are reading the New Testament as though the present tense and future tense verbs which were written almost 2,000 years ago are still pointing to some future generation, or even our generation. They are counting days and years since Christ’s death on the cross, and comparing the numbers of years to Abraham’s birth or death, or to the creation of that contrived state of Israel in 1948 in order to try to pinpoint a time for the “return” of Christ to earth.
They are desperately wanting assurance of His coming. But, they do not recognize that they are denying His every promise of His return in that same generation in which He gave the promises. They need the assurance that He kept His word, and returned to those of that century just as He said He would. How much stronger is our faith when we can know that He did not fail, and did not delay in those promises?
These verses in Matthew c. 24 are some which seem to cause them to expect some still future collective gathering of His chosen people. So, we will study the scriptures in some detail to determine who the elect were, and still are.
In order to know who “the elect” or “his chosen” were in these verses we have to identify the time period and understand the context, or subject matter of Matthew c. 24..
In Matt. 24:2, Jesus had just told the disciples that the beautiful temple was going to be torn down. The main building of the temple had been completed before Herod died, but the rest of the buildings were still undergoing reconstruction while the disciples spoke to Jesus.
So, the news that the temple was to be torn down was an astounding statement to the disciples, indeed to any Jew, as not only were these massive buildings, but the temple was the center of their lives. If it was going to be torn down, then in their minds it meant the end of their world as they knew it. (See more information at Herod’s Temple)
Understandably, they asked Christ in verse 3 when that temple would be torn down, and what would be the signs. They recognized enough to attribute the destruction of the temple as a judgment from God, and continued to ask about the signs of His coming. Think “day of the Lord” – and of the end of the “world”, and a time of judgment.
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (KJV)
The correct word in verse 3 that is translated as “world” in the KJV is ‘αἰῶνος’, or “aionos”, and in the English is “age”. An age is a cycle of time. Time is an element of the “age.”
Excerpt from Benson Commentary on Matt. 24:3-5,
“These seem to be only different expressions to denote the same period with the destruction of Jerusalem, the disciples supposing, that when the destruction of Jerusalem should take place, then would be the coming of Christ and the end of the world, or, the conclusion of the age, as συντελεια του αιωνος should rather be translated here, and often signifies. See especially Hebrews 9:26; and 1 Corinthians 10:11. Accordingly, in the parallel place of Mark 13:4, their question is expressed thus, When shall these things be, and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And in that of Luke 21:7, thus, When shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass? The disciples therefore inquire concerning two things; 1st, the time of the destruction of Jerusalem; and, 2d, the signs of it. The latter part of the question our Lord answers first, and treats of the signs of his coming from the 4th to the 31st verse, inclusive; and then passes on to the other part of the question, concerning the time of his coming.” Source: here
We know that the temple was destroyed in A.D. 70 in the Jewish-Roman wars. So, the end which Jesus was telling the disciples to watch for was going to be during that time period. The subject of the question was the destruction of that temple. Therefore, the end they were to watch for, and the signs they were to watch for was for the end of the temple, and the end of the old sacrificial covenant.
Matt. 24:34 confirmed the time period of this “end” is their generation.
“Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.” (KJV)
“This generation” was their generation, the generation in which Christ spoke the words. Not the generation in which we are reading the book; but, the generation in which Christ was manifested on this earth in the first century A.D.
Therefore, the prophesy language of Matt.24:29-31 is of that time period for the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem in the days leading up to the wars in Judea AD 66 to AD 70. This is important because it is a time marker for the prophesies Christ references in these verses.
Verse 29 references Daniel’s prophesy of the tribulation:
“ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:” (KJV)
Dan. 12:1,” And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.” (KJV)
In the OT, Michael prefigured Christ as the warrior for His people, and is so referenced again in Rev. 12:7. The prophesy to Daniel was about Daniel’s people – the Jews. So the deliverance of Dan. 12:1 from the trouble or tribulation was referenced by Christ in Matt. 24:29 in the prophetic language of rulers being removed from their stations of power.
That Christ referenced Daniel in this prophesy of the destruction of the temple marks Daniel’s prophesy for that same generation of the 1st century AD.
Christ also told them the “end” would be “immediately” after the tribulation of those days. In other words, there would be no delay between the tribulation – the persecution and the war – and the destruction of the temple.
Excerpt from Benson Commentary:
“Immediately after, &c. — We are now come to the last act of this dismal tragedy, the destruction of Jerusalem, and the final dissolution of the Jewish polity in church and state, which our Lord, for several reasons, might not think fit to declare nakedly and plainly, and therefore chose to clothe his discourse in figurative language. Commentators, indeed, have generally understood this, and what follows, of the end of the world, and of Christ’s coming to judgment: but the words, immediately after the tribulation of those days, show evidently that he is not speaking of any distant event, but of something immediately consequent upon the tribulation before mentioned, and that must be the destruction of the temple and city of Jerusalem, and the abolition of the Jewish polity, civil and religious.” Source: here
Darkening of suns and moons was God’s standard prophetic language throughout the OT for the downfall of kings and queens, princes or whatever ruling authority governed the people.
The people under discussion in Matt. c 24 were the Jews, Daniel’s people (Dan. 9:24). The same people to which Christ appeared, and to whom He was speaking. The stars falling from heaven were the tribes of Israel, which are defined throughout the OT prophetic language.
God promised Abraham in Gen. 22:17,
“ that blessing I bless thee, and multiplying I multiply thy seed as stars of the heavens, and as sand which [is] on the sea-shore; and thy seed doth possess the gate of his enemies;” (YLT)
While speaking to Isaac, God repeated the promise He gave to Abraham in Gen. 26:4,
“and I have multiplied thy seed as stars of the heavens, and I have given to thy seed all these lands; and blessed themselves in thy seed have all nations of the earth;” (YLT)
Moses reminded God of His promise in Ex. 32:13,
” `Be mindful of Abraham, of Isaac, and of Israel, Thy servants, to whom Thou hast sworn by Thyself, and unto whom Thou speakest: I multiply your seed as stars of the heavens, and all this land, as I have said, I give to your seed, and they have inherited to the age;'” (YLT)
The “stars of heaven” were the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob / Israel. Joseph’s dream in Gen. 37: 9-10 identified his brothers – the other children of Israel – as stars.
So, the falling stars in this prophesy, just as in many others from the OT were the children of Abraham, Isaac, and Israel…. the tribes of Israel.
Prophetic language that speaks of the “powers of heavens being shaken” does not speak of the heaven where God sits on His throne. That heaven cannot be shaken. The “heavens” that can be shaken are the earthly kingdoms of men, who rule over the people. They are a type of heaven, as they have authority and station above the common man.
Just as God from His heavenly throne has authority over all men, the earthly kings rule from their “heavens” of their kingdoms on earth. We have to be careful to identify which “heavens” are being spoken of in prophesy. If the “heavens” can be shaken, then they are the ruling authority or kingdoms of men.
Therefore, shaking the “powers of heavens” in Matt. 24:29 meant the removal or downfall of the ruling authorities of the Jews, specifically the Sanhedrin and the priesthood who tyrannically ruled the lives of those in Jerusalem and Judea.
It may also reference the next “heavens” or authority over them, as the Sanhedrin answered to Rome. At that time, Judea was a province of Rome. Rome was going to come under judgment as well during the Year of Four Caesars in A.D. 69 – 70, and afterwards.
See similar language in Ezek. 32:7-8; Joel 2:30-31.
Matt. 24:30 spoke of Christ’s coming in the prophetic judgment language against Jerusalem and that old temple in the same manner in which Christ had told Caiaphas that he would see the Son of Man “coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;”
Matt. 26:64, ” Jesus saith to him, `Thou hast said; nevertheless I say to you, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming upon the clouds of the heaven.'” (YLT)
This is the same prophetic language of Dan. 7:13 of the ascension of Christ,
” I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.” (KJV)
Coming in the clouds was a time of judgment upon the people and nation(s). See also Luke 21:27.
The sound of the trumpet in Matt. 24:31 was the announcement of His coming and the gospel call. The angels are messengers, and could be those heavenly beings that carry out God’s instructions, but the word is also used for any agent of God, including the apostles who were leading the people of God during this time, preaching the gospel throughout all the Roman empire (rule or “heavens”).
Excerpt from Gill’s Exposition on verse 31:
“With a great sound of a trumpet, meaning the Gospel; see Isaiah 27:13 so called in allusion either to the silver trumpets which Moses was ordered to make of one piece, and use them for the calling of the assembly, the journeying of the camps, blowing an alarm for war, and on their solemn and festival days, Numbers 10:1. The Gospel being rich and precious, all of a piece, useful for gathering souls to Christ, and to his churches;….” Source: here
The gathering of His elect was the gathering of His saints into a safe place, away from the judgment / battle on the “earth” of Judea. It is seen in Daniel’s prophesy.
Dan. 7:26-27, speaking of the fourth kingdom in which Christ would be manifested,
“ 26But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.” (KJV)
The coming of the Lord in Matt. 24 was the same as “judgment shall sit” in Dan. 7:26.
The elect are His saints, those who believe in Him, who have chosen to obey the command to be immersed in His name – baptized in His name, and are then written in the book of life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 3:5; Rev. 21:27).
The election is made on both sides of the agreement: the first of the offer from God, the call from God to obey the gospel of Christ; and the second on behalf of the ones who answer that call. It is a free will gift from God (grace), and a free will acceptance by each who will obey the command. Therefore, “the elect”.
Those “elect” or saints of the first century AD that were going to have to go through that tribulation would be safeguarded by the angels / messengers / apostles and be removed from the danger of the Jewish-Roman wars. Christ had told them in Matt. 24:16 to flee to the mountains when they saw certain signs. See also Luke 21:21-22.
(Note: It does no good to flee from a world-wide destruction such as Noah’s flood, so this chapter and Christ’s warnings were not speaking of the end of all the physical cosmos / world.)
The elect who heeded the warnings are the ones who would be “taken” out of danger in verses Matt. 24:40-41. Those who heeded the warnings fled when they saw the signs Christ spoke of: the Roman armies, the false prophets, etc.
The ones who did not heed the warnings – those left behind – faced the judgment battle, and suffered injury, enslavement, or death.
Those taken were not some rapturous removal in to the sky. They were the ones who heeded Christ’s warning to flee to the mountains. Tradition has it that they all safely fled to Pella, or the surrounding area.
Eusebius recorded that, “The members of the Jerusalem church by means of an oracle, given by revelation to acceptable persons there, were ordered to leave the city before the war began and settle in a town in Peraea called Pella.” (Book III, 5:4.)
Epiphanius (375 AD):
“The Nazoraean sect exists in Beroea near Coele Syria, in the Decapolis near the region of Pella, and in Bashan in the place called Cocaba, which in Hebrew is called Chochabe. That is where the sect began, when all the disciples were living in Pella after they moved from Jerusalem, since Christ told them to leave Jerusalem and withdraw because it was about to be besieged. For this reason they settled in Peraea and there, as I said, they lived. This is where the Nazoraean sect began.” (Panarion 29:7:7-8)
Eutychius of Alexandria (10th c AD)
“Qistus, governor of Jerusalem, died and the city was without any authority or sovereign to govern it. The Jews then arose and rioted and killed James, son of Joseph, known as the “brother of the Lord”, stoning him to death (14). Then they harassed a group of disciples and expelled them from the city. The Christians abandoned Jerusalem, crossed the Jordan and settled in those places (15). Informed of this fact, Nero Caesar sent word to the commander stationed in the East, named Vespasian, to rally his troops and go to Judea with orders to kill all the inhabitants, sparing none, and to destroy the houses.” (The Annals of Eutychius of Alexandria, ch. 9:)
John Lightfoot (1889):
“Jerusalem was taken in the autumn of 70 A.D. Before its fall the Christians had left the doomed city. While the greater part retired beyond the Jordan and founded Christian colonies at Pella and the neighborhood, the principle leaders of the church — the surviving apostles and other personal disciples of the Lord — sought a new home in proconsular Asia. Henceforward we find the headquarters of Christendom no more at Jerusalem, nor even at Antioch but, (for the time at least) in Ephesus. Here John fixed his abode after his temporary banishment in Patmos.” (Lightfoot, J.B.; Translated and edited; Apostolic Fathers: Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp; first published 1889; Pub. Hendrickson; Vol. 1, pg. 438.)
This was the same flight that Christ prophesied to John in Rev. 12:6 of the “woman” (the church of Christ) who fled the “dragon” (Rome) into the wilderness for 1260 days, or 3-1/2 years. The Jewish revolt began in Jerusalem about Oct. 66 AD, and after Cestius Gallus failed to put down the rebellion (here), Nero sent Vespasian who began his campaign in Feb. – Mar. 67 AD marching inward from Galilee and working his way through Judea.
In AD 69 Vespasian left his son Titus in charge of the campaign, and gathered his supporters to return to Rome and take control of the falling empire during the Year of Four Caesars, as the destruction in Rome under the civil wars of Galba, Otho, and Vitellius had almost destroyed the city. See here.
Meanwhile, Titus had reached Jerusalem in March / April AD 70, waited until the gates of the city were shut for the Passover, and laid siege. Six months later, approx. Sept. 8-10 AD 70 Jerusalem fell, and the temple was destroyed.
” The siege of Jerusalem was probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history.” J.E. Lendon, Military History Quarterly Summer 2005, The Roman Siege of Jerusalem Source: here
Those saints (elect) that had fled Jerusalem and the battle areas in Judea when they saw the Roman armies approaching sheltered in Pella and other areas beyond the Jordan. Many then moved on and settled in different areas after the destruction was over.
So, after A.D. 70, the scattered Jewish Christians all dispersed throughout the nations, which furthered the teaching of the gospel of Christ to all the world.
” …for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.” Isa. 2:3, (KJV)
” The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.” Joel 3:16 (KJV)
Christ, our Lord roared from Zion (Jerusalem) during His earthly ministry, at His death on the cross, when He was resurrected and appeared to the disciples, and when He sent them the Comforter, and poured out the Holy Spirit upon the people of the first century A.D. The Holy Spirit’s record of His testimony is still roaring today!
The judgment of Jerusalem, and the tribes of Israel was fulfilled in the destruction of that temple in A.D. 70, and the scattering of the once chosen people of God. See Ezek. 22:20-22; Dan. 12:7.
Today, the chosen are the elect – the saints – who have put on Christ through baptism (immersion). When we are baptized into Christ (Mark 16:16), we are covered by His blood (Ex. 12:13; Rom. 5:9), and are clothed in His righteousness (the wedding garments of Matt. c. 22). Then we are counted for the seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:26-29), and are children of faith (Rom 4:10-18), and we become the Israel under the new covenant of the gospel of Christ which is saved with an everlasting salvation (Isa. 45:17).
Those of us who are in Christ are Israel.
Through the gospel of Christ, our heavenly Father has given us everything we need to attain salvation (Acts 4:12; 2 Pet. 1:3-4). We are not waiting for Him to do anything more. We are assured through His word that He has already accomplished the predetermined plan of salvation (1 Pet. 1:20; Matt. 25:34; Rev. 13:8) in His sacrifice on the cross, and His fulfillment of the old covenant, and His destruction of that old sacrificial temple.
We rejoice greatly because He did it all! He came back to those of the first century A.D. just as He promised them that He would. He continues to sit in judgment, and rules from the right hand of the Father over all of His kingdom. He continues to judge the nations from heaven above as He has always done. He doesn’t have to come back to earth to do His will, or to execute any necessary judgment.
Today, we live our lives according to His will and remain faithful unto death. Then, we will hear our last trump. We will be resurrected, changed in the twinkling of an eye (1 Cor. 15:51-54), and be gathered together into heaven with all of the saints that have gone before us. 1 Thess. 4:16-17:
” 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
The tendency of most people when reading the above two verses is to link them in time. The word “then” in verse 17 makes a distinction in time for those that remained alive… those who had not yet fallen alseep… when the Lord came back to them in A.D. 70.
“Then,”… afterwards …after the judgment against Israel, and after the destruction of the temple. It indicates that afterwards life was going to continue on; that after the Lord’s second appearance in that generation (Heb. 9:28) the living would be taken up as they died.
After the temple was destroyed, Christ opened the gates of Hades (Rev. 1:18) and carried out the first resurrection of all of the dead who had been waiting in Hades (Matt. 25:31-33; Rev. 20:12), all those that had died before His judgment coming in A.D. 70. (See the post at the right – “The Burning of Jerusalem and the Hadean Death.”)
Then (after), the resurrection process changed from a group or general resurrection to the individual resurrection.
Rev. 14:13, “ And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.” (KJV)
Today, Christ is still sitting on His throne. His judgment has never stopped; it is on-going. For all that remained alive at His second appearance, all that had not yet died would be caught up as they passed from mortal to immortal life to be gathered into heaven to be with the Lord forever more.
“Caught up together” means being taken to where they are in heaven, to be with them. It does not mean at the same time. Any version of the translation that reads “simultaneously” is in error.
Ever since the judgment of A.D. 70, the gathering of the elect has been happening every hour of every day that a soul in Christ passes from this corruptible, mortal life into everlasting, eternal life in heaven.
There are many sources that can be reviewed for the history of the Jewish wars with Rome. You may like to read Causes of the Jewish War; Titus’ Siege of Jerusalem; or Book 4 of Josephus’ War of the Jews.
Background for the scriptural evidences are presented in Parts I – X of “It’s Not The End of The World; Parts I – VIII of “The Signs of Revelation”; “Daniel and The End Times”; “The Whore of Babylon” and many others at the right margin.
All bold emphasis is mine.
Other recommended readings:
Shredding The Veil 
Could you share some thoughts on the first resurrection and second resurrection that are mentioned in Revelation?
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Please read the post The Resurrection in Three Parts from Sep 2017. Also recommend the post Hades is No More from Aug 2022. Rev. 20:4-5 covers much of the period of the 40 yrs from Christ’s resurrection during which the gospel was heard throughout the world of the Roman empire when many of the disciples were martyred. They were resurrected & gathered into heaven at their deaths. The rest of the “dead” in that part of Hades reserved for the righteous (the sheep of Matt. 25) happened after the temple was destroyed, which was the end of the “thousand years” or God’s appointed time. That is the separation from the grave that Matt. 25 depicts. Ever since AD 70, every one who dies in the Lord is resurrected, transformed, and gathered into heaven to be with all those who have gone before us.
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Could you go over Revelation 12:4 ? When it says one third of the angels fell, is this a literal or figurative number? Also does this refer to Rome taking down Jerusalem? I assume you don’t believe angels (invisible beings) were cast out of heaven.
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I have been introducing the first audience perspective at this blog to bring everyone along a path to be able to recognize God’s prophetic imagery and metaphors that He used first in the old testament, the Hebrew scriptures, and again in the new testament books. This blog has been in process for 10 years, exploring God’s language of prophesy, poetry and symbols so students of His word can see beyond surface reading; so that they may bring that knowledge to a deeper study of His word. I can give you a few words in this reply to your comment, but space here prevents a fuller discussion. I will not be able to capture the beauty nor the depth of God’s complete picture that He provides in this one verse.
We must recognize God’s use of animal images as aspects of people’s characteristics and behavior. He calls us His sheep, & it is most appropriate as sheep are very dumb animals that need a shepherd to guide them out of harm’s way. He calls the evil wicked people predator animals – lions, bears, wolves – as they kill the weak and the young to feed upon; or they hunt in packs to kill an adult. He uses the “dragon” imagery for tyrant kings and their rulers, and collectively their entire political courts who terrorize the people of that nation/land, extorting their wealth, their productivity, turning it into their own pockets.
We must recognize the symbols of “heaven” and “earth” in specific judgment prophecies in order to identify which people the animals represent. God used the word “heaven(s)” for the kingdoms of nations, and the “earth” for the people who lived on the land of that nation. (See Part II of The Signs of Revelation, Feb. 2017.) Once we have those symbols and metaphors identified, then and only then can we properly apply the prophecy to specific lands or nations, and to specific people or groups of people.
Essentially, Rev. 12:1 sets the time frame for John as a flash back to Christ’s birth, therefore of earlier times John knew and had already lived through in the 1st century AD. There is the duality of the imagery of the woman as both Mary, the mother of Jesus; and of the congregation or assembly / church of Christ under His gospel of the new covenant. The delivery of the child is the dual image of both the man child Christ, and the new church of Christ, the congregation of His saints under the new covenant. There is the dual imagery of the dragon as both Herod, the king appointed by Rome to rule Judea; and of Rome itself. There is the duality of Mary & Joseph’s flight to Egypt and of the assembly of the saints fleeing to the mountains before the destruction of Jerusalem.
Rev. 12:4 does not say “angels” but “the stars of heaven.” This is the metaphor / symbol God typically used for the children of Israel, and more specifically those of the priesthood and temple hierarchy. God promised Abraham that his descendants would be “as the stars of heaven.” That redirects our attention to the “dragon” more appropriately as Herod, the man who ruled over Judea and Jerusalem when was Christ was born. The first adversary against Christ and His disciples during His ministry was always the Sanhedrin, the scribes and Pharisees; those who exercised authority over the people of Judea and Jerusalem. They were the ones who wanted to kill Christ b/c He was removing their power structure and monetary system of their control of the people as they feared what the people would do.
Which dragon then was the first cause of the downfall of the temple and Jerusalem? Which delivery and birth shall we focus on? Is it only speaking of Christ’s birth, or the birth of His church / assembly? Casting stars down to earth is removing those who had power and control from their assumed or appointed positions of authority so that they could no longer persecute His saints. A third of the stars of heaven was then those of the Sanhedrin who had control of the temple & its treasury, and the scribes, Pharisees who considered themselves to be the true teachers of the law.
There is more that Rev. 12:4 encompasses, and if I am able, if I can gain the courage to attempt to approach a more in depth exploration without writing a doctoral thesis on this one verse, you may see a future post that will provide you a better answer to your question.
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I appreciate the time you have taken to respond. I’ve found Revelation 12 to be the most difficult chapter for me. Thank you and I look forward to anything else you wish to add regarding chapter 12.
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I have a very good commentary on the Book of Revelation by Foy E Wallace, Jr which would be more beneficial to you than a few comments that this blog would not be able to cover as extensively. You can buy copies from Amazon, but I also found a link to a .pdf file you can download. Please use the following link: https://docslib.org/doc/13956239/commentary-on-the-book-of-revelation-foy-e-wallace In it, I think you will find the answers you need on all of Revelation.
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Thank you very much for passing that information along. I have never heard of Foy E Wallace. It looks like he belonged to the Church of Christ. I’ve been wondering if there is a particular church throughout the United States that one could attend that holds to the teaching of full preterism.
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No, not that I have found. Many of the churches of Christ were infiltrated by the Dispensationalists during the 80’s and 90’s and were deceived by it. Some of the Presbyterian churches know that Revelation is about the destruction of Jerusalem, but still hold out for an end time apocalypse destruction and another future return of Christ to end it all. Most of the Baptist churches are dispensational. The Eastern Orthodox seem to know that a little more about Preterism, but again are waiting for Christ to come back and destroy the entire world. It is hit and miss. And, we fight a continuing battle on all fronts to bring ppl back to what the scriptures really say. Don Preston has daily “Morning Musings” on his youtube channel – https://www.youtube.com/@MrDonPreston/videos. William Bell is a church of Christ preacher in Tennessee I think and has a youtube channel “All Things Fulfilled” – https://www.allthingsfulfilled.com/about-wiliam-bell-jr/. Both are excellent at teaching the scriptures.
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On a philosophical note, do you believe that God knows in advance, the choices that we make throughout our lives ? Or does God somehow limit his own knowledge regarding our choices, so that we are free to choose? It seems to me that if God knows what I am going to do before I do it, then I don’t have free will.
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Yes, the scriptures state that He is omniscient, and He knows what we will do before we do it.
“9 Remember former things of old, For I [am] Mighty, and there is none else, God — and there is none like Me.10 Declaring from the beginning the latter end, And from of old that which hath not been done, Saying, `My counsel doth stand, And all My delight I do.'” (Isa. 46:9-10, YLT)
“O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether.” (Psa. 139:1-4, KJV)
“And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, s…” (Acts 1:24, KJV)
But, knowing what we will do, knowing our hearts and our thoughts does not mean that YHVH controls us. He has given us the free will to choose whom we will serve, God or mammon (that is selfishness).
“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” (Deu. 30:19, KJV)
” And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; …” (Josh. 24:15, KJV)
“No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.” (Matt. 6:24, KJV)
Our free will is limited to the choices before us. If we drive down a dead-end street, we have the choice of turning around, or maybe turning onto a side road. If we are buying apples in the store, we have a limited selection from those the grocer stocks. We have the choice of entering into the front door, or the back door, or maybe the garage door of our homes. God knows what we will do, but He does not restrict our ability to choose. Otherwise, there would have been no reason for Christ to die for our sins. If God controlled our actions, then we would have no responsibility for what we do, and therefore judgment would be unrighteous and unnecessary.
But, God is a righteous judge, and all His words and actions are true. (Psa. 6:8; 31:1; 35:24, 28; 36:6; 50:6; 71:19, etc.)
It is in our control to answer His call for our salvation. Our salvation is conditional upon our obedience to His will.
“Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:” (Matt. 7:7, KJV)
“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?” (Acts 2:37, KJV)
“23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.” (1 John 3:23-24, KJV)
Deu. 11:28, “And a curse, if you will not obey…” Heb. 3:15, & 4:7, “…today, if ye will hear his voice…”
“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Rom. 8:13, KJV)
So, God has made the arrangements and perfected His plan that He predestined. Jesus completed the plan through His death on the cross, that if we repent and are immersed into Christ we might, MIGHT, have eternal life, IF we are faithful unto death.
“Rev. 14:13 , “…Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: …” (KJV) See also 1 John 2:24;
“He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” (Mark 16:16, KJV)
The choice to knock on His door, to answer His call, to put on His righteousness, to be clothed in His love is ours. Then, we have to stay faithful unto death. All of which is our free will choice.
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Thank you for the response and wonderful verses. Let me ask this question. Jesus told Peter that he would disown him three times that very night. Would you say it is reasonable to conjecture that if Peter did in fact have free will, he could have chosen to affirm his relationship with Jesus that night rather than deny it? But the problem as I see it, is if Peter had exercised his free will and affirmed his relationship with Jesus, he would have made Jesus a liar, because Jesus stated that Peter would in fact disown him. So do you believe Peter had the free will to make a decision that ran contrary to what Jesus predicted?
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Yes, I believe that Peter could have chosen to side with Christ, but Peter’s fear was greater than his love at that point. If he had stood with Jesus the Sanhedrin would most likely have crucified Peter as well as Christ. But, Christ knew what Peter would choose to do. Just as Jesus knew the woman at the well had had 5 husbands and was living with a man outside of marriage (John 4:18), just as He knew the thoughts of the people, the scribes and Pharisees before they spoke (Matt. 9:4; 12:25; Mark 2:6-8, etc). If Peter was going to stand with Christ, then Jesus would have known that, and would not have told Peter that Peter would deny Jesus three times before the cock crowed. Jesus had foreknowledge. He knew Nathanael’s heart before He ever met Nathanael (John 1:47-48).
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In Matthew 24:13 what is meant by the word “saved” ?
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The word “saved” at Matt. 24:13 is the Strong’s Ge 4982, “sozo.” It means to save, rescue, preserve, heal and deliver. The context of the prophesy of Matt. 24 is of the time period of the destruction of the temple which the disciples asked Jesus specifically about in vs. 3, “when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming…” So, Jesus’ statement in vs. 13 of those enduring to the end has the immediate meaning of surviving the war or battle to deliver them from harm in order for them to live beyond that time, or saving their physical lives. He gave them instructions on what to watch for and what to do – flee to the mountains – so they would not get caught in that tribulation. It also has the spiritual meaning of salvation of their souls should they not survive that battle. Enduring to the end covers both situations, that they also endure the persecutions and hardships, and stay faithful unto death their ultimate salvation being gathered into heaven at their bodily death.
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Thanks for the reply. I figured it must have some spiritual meaning also since Jesus also told them that some would be put to death. Since all of them didn’t physically survive until the end, it had me wondering about this verse
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How should we view Matthew 24:21 ? Is there some figurative meaning regarding the “unequaled distress” ? Jesus wasn’t saying there will never be any wars in the future with greater loss of life than the war in A.D. 70, I would assume.
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The focus was of the Jewish temple which is the beginning question the disciples asked in Matt. 24:3. The word “Tribulation” in vs. 21 is G2347 Thlipsis, and is great distress, anguish, persecution, especially that which rubs against another in a narrow place, internal pressure causing one to feel confined, restricted without options, having no way of escape. The internal division and strife within the city during the siege was enormous, with the different factions fighting each other, especially after the Zealots destroyed the stored grain supply resulting in starvation. When we read the account of this internal strife and anguish from Josephus’ account in War of the Jews our hearts are torn at the number of people who turned on each other, killing and eating their own children, and family members who had died. When the Romans finally entered the city they were so disgusted at the amount of blood running in the streets that they killed many of the survivors as they considered them guilty of the murders of their brethren. (Read Josephus, Bk 5, Chap. 10 ff: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/2850/2850-h/2850-h.htm#link52HCH0007)
Vs. 21 is not speaking of other wars or other tribulations that would happen in the future. It is not about the number of ppl who died in the war. The anguish with no escape was the intent. This was the result of God’s prophecy that He would cause them to believe a lie b/c of their rebelliousness in killing Jesus (2 Thess. 2:11). The arrogance of the Jews was still such that they were telling each other that God would save them.
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Where in the Bible does it say that we ought to spread the gospel to the world after A.D. 70 ? Christ told his disciples to spread the gospel throughout the Roman Empire in the first century, until the end of the age, in A.D. 70, but where do we find anything similar to this regarding a post A.D. 70 world? Does the Bible say that we ought to spread the message of Christ to the world?
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Paul’s instruction to Timothy, sometimes called the lesser commission:
“2 and the things that thou didst hear from me through many witnesses, these things be committing to stedfast men, who shall be sufficient also others to teach;” (2 Tim. 2:2, YLT)
It is not time limited, but insures the gospel will continue from generation to generation.
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So you believe Paul’s words in 2 Tim 2:2 can be applied to us? Obviously Paul’s word’s were instructing a 1st century audience prior to A.D. 70. I agree with you, but I do want to have an adequate response ready in case a dispensationalist, for example retorts “Well, you believe all this stuff unfolded prior to A.D. 70, so how do you know we should still be spreading the gospel today?”
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Eph. 2:7, “that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,” (YLT)
Eph. 3:21, “to Him [is] the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen.” (YLT)
Phil. 4:20, ” and to God, even our Father, [is] the glory — to the ages of the ages. Amen.” (YLT)
Rom. 11:36, ” because of Him, and through Him, and to Him [are] the all things; to Him [is] the glory — to the ages. Amen.” (YLT)
All of these and more show that the gospel of Christ is now present and will be present to all of the ages. It took over from the Mosaic covenant when that old Jerusalem temple was destroyed in AD 70. AD 70 was not the end of the world, but the end of the old covenant. Under the new covenant we have the continual everlasting kingdom of YHVH. For anyone to imply that the gospel of Christ was only for that generation of the 1st century AD flies against the words “to the ages of the ages”, and “everlasting.” This thinking implies that Christ’s sacrifice is limited, and that God’s grace and love are limited not only to a particular time period, but also to a particular people. I have heard similar comments from those of the dispensational dogma, but they are not thinking clearly.
As all ages since that old covenant passed are under the new covenant of the gospel of Christ then we who are in Christ are still under the general commands. We can separate the specific commands He told His apostles & disciples that would only apply to their work in that time period, but the general commands still apply. Ie; His commands for His disciples to go to all of the cities of Israel in Matt. 10 was specifically for them to spread the news of the gospel to those ppl of the cities that existed in the old Roman empire that still paid the tithes to the Sanhedrin in Jerusalem. That command does not apply to us today. But the general principle as Paul gave to Timothy is still in operation. Is the command given in a general universal sense of “all men” ? Then it still applies.
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Do you see evidence of original sin in the Bible? I don’t see it, but would like to pick your brain on this topic.
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No. Every one is responsible for their own sins (Gal 6:5). Children are not born in sin. Augustine came with that idea centuries ago. I have addressed this false teaching my post “Lies of the Roman Catholic Church – Part IV…” from Aug 2015.
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Prior to A.D. 70, did everyone on the planet go to Sheol or was it only for the Jews?
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Every one died and went to the grave. Sheol was the Hebrew word, and Hades was the Greek word for the grave, sometimes called the pit.
“22 There [is] Asshur, and all her assembly, Round about him [are] his graves, All of them [are] wounded, who are falling by sword, 23 Whose graves are appointed in the sides of the pit, And her assembly is round about her grave, All of them wounded, falling by sword, Because they gave terror in the land of the living.
24 There [is] Elam, and all her multitude, Round about [is] her grave, All of them wounded, who are falling by sword, Who have gone down uncircumcised unto the earth — the lower parts, Because they gave their terror in the land of the living, And they bear their shame with those going down to the pit.
25 In the midst of the wounded they have appointed a bed for her with all her multitude, Round about him [are] her graves, All of them uncircumcised, pierced of the sword, For their terror was given in the land of the living, And they bear their shame with those going down to the pit, In the midst of the pierced he hath been put.
26 There [is] Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude, Round about him [are] her graves, All of them uncircumcised, pierced of the sword, For they gave their terror in the land of the living, ” (Ezek. 32:22-26, YLT)
Luke 16:19-31 gives a picture of the grave, or Hades / Sheol, with the tale of Lazarus & the rich man. It had two separate parts which were separated by a huge gulf no one could cross. Those souls counted righteous were put into the section the rabbis called Abraham’s Bosom, the same that Jesus called “Paradise” (Luke 23:43). The rich man was placed in the section of Hades called “Tartarus” or the place of torment. Notice that both of the men were judged at their death as they were put in the section of Hades according to God’s determination.
Heb. 9:27, “and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this — judgment,” It has always been God’s process that judgment takes place at our bodily death. That has not changed. But, the unseen realm of the dead, the grave (Sheol or Hades) has changed. Ever since AD 70 those who die in the Lord are greatly blessed in that we are changed in the twinkling of an eye and taken home to heaven to be with all of those counted righteous (Rev. 14:13). Those who do not die in the Lord, the stiff-necked, rebellious, disobedient children will be cast into outer darkness. (Matt. 8:12; 22:13; 2 Pet. 2:17).
You might read my post “Hades Is No More” from Aug 2022. Blessings to you.
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As a full preterist, how should we view the end of time? Or the end of the world? In this regard, I am not referring to the end of the age, which I believe occurred in 70 A.D. but I am now discussing the end of the human race, the end of this Earthly globe entirely. Is this something that full preterists should not concern themselves with as it relates to scripture? Do we just say, well, perhaps some day the human race will terminate themselves in a nuclear war. Perhaps as scientists say, the sun will supernova and swallow the solar system up? Do we just say the human race will continue to breed until God calls an end to it, but ultimately scripture really has nothing to say about it? This is one point where partial preterists and obviously dispensationalists have a major problem with the full preterist view. It sort of leaves the end of the world as we know it today an open ended and unknowable proposition.
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The concept of an end of time, or end of the “cosmos” is Catholic doctrine, invented by men. The Bible never speaks of the end of time. In fact it implies the opposite, that God rules and is maintaining the earth for His people. It is my opinion that should He ever decide to “end” this process of harvesting souls for His glory, it would only be as the example is given in Noah’s flood, when He knows that no one else will ever turn to Him. But, that is God’s decision and not our concern. We are to be running the race with endurance (Heb. 12:1), tell others of the hope we have in Christ Jesus (1 Pet. 3:15), teach our children about God every day (Eph. 6:1-4), take care of the widows and orphans (James 1:27), and share the wealth that we have through Christs blessings (Luke 16: 20-31). That is enough to keep us busy.
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I appreciate the response. Thank You!
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I appreciate the work you put into this site. It has clarified much of the confusion for me that I see in the christian world today. I have another question about something Jesus said on the Mount of Olives. If the disciples understood fully that Jesus was not speaking about a bodily return, then why did Jesus say to them, “Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name say I am the Christ.” Why would Jesus warn them not to be deceived by flesh and blood people pretending to be Him. Haven’t we established already that the disciples understood that Jesus was not going to return to the Earth in bodily form again?” That particular passage confuses me. I’d like to know how to defend the preterist view here, in case someone challenges me on it. I don’t know how to view this passage. Thanks!
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Or, isn’t it rather that Jesus was stressing the point that a bodily return was not being discussed? Paraphrase… don’t be deceived by any who tell you they are the Christ because I am not coming back in the flesh.
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In Matthew 24 the disciples ask Him, “When will this happen and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” From the disciples’ perspective, did they believe He would return to Earth in the flesh or did they understand that it was a coming of judgement? Obviously Jesus knew what His “coming” was all about, but did the disciples understand it was not a bodily return?
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The language Christ used is the same used in the OT for judgment of nations / tribes. Matt. 24:3 in the YLT – “Tell us, when shall these be? and what [is] the sign of thy presence, and of the full end of the age?'” Presence, or coming was well understood in Hebrew by His disciples as a TIME of judgment when God’s anger was poured out upon the wicked. And, well did they recall the accounts of the first destruction of the temple. So, their first thoughts probably were ‘which army was God going to send to destroy the temple this time?’ They knew that the destruction of the temple would be the end of an age, or time period. And, Hebrews made it clear… the Mosaic age was ending. They knew it was not a bodily return Christ spoke of. We are the ones who don’t know the Hebrew background, and are not familiar with the OT judgment language.
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Paul, see also my post Signs of The Feasts Part II: Jesus Told the Disciples When… They knew!
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Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.
Acts 1: 9 – 11
What is your stand on this?
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Coming in the clouds is from the OT judgement language (Jer. 4:13; Dan. 7:13; Joel 2:2; Zeph. 1:15). Acts 1:9 – “and a cloud received him out of their site.” God traveled in the clouds. The clouds are his covering (Job 22:14). His strength is in the clouds (Psa. 68:34). They are His chariot (Psa. 104:3). They are the dust of His feet (Nah. 1:3) So, as Jesus was rec’d into the clouds, the angel (messenger) told the disciples in the same language they were familiar with from the OT that He was coming back in judgment – IOW in the clouds. That agrees perfectly with Matt. 24:30 – judgment language – in the discussion of the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem. That pin points that specific judgment to AD 70 and the Roman army under Vespasian & Titus. Please read It’s Not The End of The World – Parts III & IV – Judgement Language…
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Very well done. I’m learning a lot from this site. My understanding of the “one taken and the other left” verse, is that those “taken” are taken in judgement. Those who are “left” are the ones who listened to the Lord and were spared. Jesus compared it to the Great Flood in which the wicked were taken away by the Flood and the righteous were left, or remained. This is the only seeming disagreement I have with you here. You seemed to indicate that the ones “left behind” were the ones under judgement and the ones “taken” were spared. That’s the opposite of how I view it.
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Greetings Gina,
You did not expound on 1 Thess. 4:16 (a) ” For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND from heaven with a shout….” Perhaps you have done so in another article. If so, could you direct me please? Thank you.
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Bob, the first half of 1 Thess. 4:16(a) is the part two of the resurrection discussed in the post “The Resurrection in Three Parts”, though it is not referenced. When the Lord descended from heaven for His second appearance in that generation, He returned in judgment of Judea and Palestine, and at that time He separated out all those in Hades: the sheep waiting in Paradise(Abraham’s bosom) to the right hand, and the goats from Tartarus on His left hand. This was the explanation He provided in Matt. 25:31-46. Those souls were resurrected from Hades, and the sheep / saved were taken home to heaven.
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Great job Gina, you shine in your calling love your writings
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Thanks again, Michael.
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You cannot use anything in Revelation because it points to a time after 95 CE. Also a generation can be 38 years, 40, 50, 70, 80, 100, and 120 years.
Do all your figures counting backwards from your end date line up with your end year. Also you need to include 120 Jubilees, 40 Jubilees and 70 Jubilees from your end date.
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You have not bothered to start at the beginning with It’s Not The End of The World, Parts I – X. Revelation was not written in 95 AD, but in 66 – 68 AD. It was written before the destruction of the temple as John was told to measure in chap. 11, and the Jews (synagogue of Satan) were still sacrificing at it in Rev 2:9 and 3:9. More evidences supplied in Part V of It’s Not The End of The World, and Part I of The Signs of Revelation. Please do take the time to read these posts.
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